Was OT YHWH really SATAN? – Part 1

 

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Posted Oct 26/2018

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[Friend],

 

Good to hear from you –

 

Thanks for letting me comment on this email excerpt from some young friend of yours—always great to see someone studying the Word and trying to be honest and have a good conscience before God in how they understand the scripture.

 

My comments are interspersed with your friend’s --

 

“Glen, this is from a young friend who recently came back to Jesus from New Age after 20 yrs. They listen to a lot of teachers—not all of whom would be good leaders for them, perhaps not teaching them to consider ALL of the interconnections of Scripture. They sent the attached email to me. Can you give me your thoughts on this, and maybe some suggestions for them?

 

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To: Mr. [ABC]

…

I have a many verse comparison of who Jesus said his Father is, and who Yahweh says he is. There are lies that Yahweh says/changes his mind, and countless verses where Jesus describes His Father, and Yahweh describes himself, and they don’t match. TONS of verses. It’s so obvious Yahweh is evil by Jesus words, and astounding the church doesn’t question this beast. I know you will agree with me as the proof I have is all from Jesus mouth. …

 

I can seriously applaud such effort to understand the character of God, Yahweh, Jesus, and the Father – it is great to see somebody digging into the Word!

 

As I understand his (or hers?) position, they seem to be saying that when Jesus speaks of the Father, that Jesus cannot be speaking about Yahweh from the Old Testament. Likewise, if Jesus says good things about ‘God’ (theos), then this could not be Yahweh, the ‘god’ of the Old Testament.

 

There is an easy way to test this theory

 

1.      We look for all of the times Jesus uses the word FATHER and see if any of the references point back to the God of the OT (which would be referring to YAHWEH)—for example in a quote or allusion to an OT passage.

2.      We look for all the times Jesus uses the word GOD and see if any of the references point back to the God of the OT (which would be referring to YAHWEH).

3.      IF we find some verses like that – indicating the Jesus was referring to YAHWEH by the word “GOD”—we then see if Jesus is speaking of this GOD in POSITIVE TERMS (like He does of the Father).

 

If we get any ‘hits’ on the above, then your student friend needs to go back and re-think their position. They would be disagreeing with Jesus in this stronger sense (stronger than just comparing adjectives about YAHWEH and the Father—more on this later).

 

 

Of course, if Jesus only uses the word “God” without IDENTIFYING that God with the OLD TESTAMENT GOD, then theoretically He could be referring to the Father (who is NOT YAHWEH, in your friend’s conclusion). We may note these, but they might not be considered evidence one way or another.

 

Let’s see what we can find in the NT direct quotations of Jesus,

 

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First let’s look for verses using the word FATHER and see if there are any EXPLICIT ties to the OT:

 

John 6.45 is pretty clear—it connects “Father” to the “God” of the OT:

It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—“

 

 

Second, let’s note that Jesus connects “Father” to “God” interchangeably in many places, as does the very phrase “Son of God” [some duplicates in here, from the Synoptic gospels]:

 

John 16:27	For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
John 3:16	“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 8:42	Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
John 1:18	No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
John 10:36	Do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
John 13:3	Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God,
John 20:17	Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
John 5:18	This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 6:27	Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”
John 6:46	Not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Luke 1:35	And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Luke 4:3	The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
Luke 4:9	And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
Mark 3:11	And whenever the unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”
Mark 5:7	7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”
Matthew 14:33	And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Matthew 16:16	Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Matthew 4:3	And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
Matthew 4:6	And said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’ ”
Matthew 8:29	29 And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

 

 

 

Third, are the passages tying Jesus’ “God” to the YHWH of the OT—in approving ways (some dups again). In some cases there are direct quotes from the OT. Most of the words translated “Lord” in these have YHWH in the Hebrew originals. Note especially the first one – the Shema – Jesus says that the greatest commandment is love YAHWEH will all your being!

 

Luke 10:27	And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
Mark 12:29	Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
Matthew 22:37	And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Luke 20:37	But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”
Luke 4:12	And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”
Luke 4:8	And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God,    and him only shall you serve.’ ”
Luke 6:4	How he entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those with him?”
Mark 10:6	But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’
Mark 12:26	And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?  He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
Mark 2:26	How he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?”
Mark 7:8	And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Matthew 19:4,6	The Creator made them male and female ...So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Matthew 12:4	How he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Matthew 15:3	He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’  He need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
Matthew 22:31	And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Matthew 4:10	Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’ ”
Matthew 4:4	4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”
Matthew 4:7	Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

 

There can be no confusion here – Jesus constantly states that His Father is God, and that His Father God is the God of the Old Testament. The passages point to ALL of the HEBREW WORDS translated God or Lord (YAHWEH, EL).

 

[There are no Greek versions of ‘yahweh’, so Jesus could not refer to the OT God using those names—only THEOS (god) and KURIOS (lord) words were available. But by noting that Jesus referred to the OT god (YAHWEH) with the words (THEOS, KURIOS, and PATER—father) there is no honest way to make Jesus anti-YAHWEH.

 

Fourth, we should also note how APPROVINGLY Jesus spoke of “God” (not just “Father”). He consistently points His followers to trust in God, and to obey Him. In here also are the verses describing Jesus as being WITH GOD (not just “FATHER”) and going TO GOD (not just ‘FATHER”).

 

John 1:1	In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:12	But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
John 1:2	He was in the beginning with God.
John 14:1	“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
John 17:3	And this is eternal life that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 6:29	Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
John 8:40	But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Luke 1:16	And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,
Luke 1:19	And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
Luke 1:30	And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luke 1:32	He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
Luke 1:47	and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Luke 11:20	But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Luke 11:42	But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.
Luke 12:24	Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!
Luke 12:28	But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!
Luke 12:6	Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
Luke 16:13	No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
Luke 18:19	And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Luke 2:40	And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52	And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
Luke 20:25	He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Luke 22:69	But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 6:12	In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God.
Luke 8:21	He answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
Mark 10:18	And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Mark 11:22	And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God.
Mark 12:17	Jesus said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they marveled at him.
Mark 3:35	For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
Matthew 12:28	But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Matthew 22:21	They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
Matthew 3:16	And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Matthew 5:8	“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:9	“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 6:24	“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
Matthew 6:30	But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

 

 

So, if we go on the EXPLICIT WORDS OF JESUS ONLY ABOUT THE OT GOD--and not just a comparison of descriptions--we cannot describe Him as anti-YAHWEH, or disapproving of YAHWEH, or calling YHWH evil, or even as a rival or ‘better than YAHWEH’. He honors YAHWEH and challenges us to be ‘more like our Father in heaven’—His father, YAHWEH (according to him).

 

Your friend would need to study and pray carefully through the above verses and ask the Father for understanding how it all fits together. As Paul says, it is important that we NOT BE ‘false witnesses of God’ (I Cor 15:15). With serious study and humble honesty, God will surely bless his (or her) efforts!

 

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Your friend continues:

 

We wonder why religions are so bloody? Well, 50% of the world worships a Yahweh religion: Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and Christians - who inherited the OT, but all feel pretty uncomfortable about the OT god but somehow try to make excuses for it.

 

Nah…smile… religions are bloody because HUMANS are bloody (we are sinners!). Mono-theistic religions have no monopoly on religion-claiming-violence (the Ancient Near East with its tons of Gods show that)! Religion in the hands of humans are no different than politics or philosophy in our hands. Lenin, Mao, and Genghis Khan are right up there with the Crusades, the Inquisition, Islamic terrorism and conquest…

 

It’s a good bit more complicated than ascribing it to an interpretation of a historical text.

 

Jesus didn’t seem to be ‘bothered’ by the Old Testament (as we saw above)—and He taught His disciples to treasure the OT YAHWEH as well (c.f. the use of the OT in the Epistles, for example).

 

The only excuse one you see it objectively and listen to Jesus is that Yahweh is not his Father. Jesus NEVER says the name Yahweh, but rather Theos exclusively, or El Elyon. Yes, Jesus said “I AM”. But Yahweh says “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE” meaning, not the same yesterday, today, forever, but changing to its own whim. Also if Yahweh says “I AM WHAT I AM” Jesus says only “I AM” which is where, again, this counterfeit is. 

The Christians use this one reference to say these are the same being, just that one, but there are countless others that inform this isn’t the case. Yahweh clearly can change who he is into, well, who he’ll be when her decides. VERY different than unchanging.

 

Not sure I follow the argument here. There seems to be a little bit of confusion.

 

·         Of course Jesus doesn’t say YAHWEH in the record of His sayings IN GREEK. Greek didn’t have those words—but He might have said them in Aramaic, but there was no practical way to record that in the Greek languages.  We have a couple of transliterations of Aramaic (the cry on the cross, the resurrection of the little girl) but by the NT time the Jews did not pronounce the name YHWH because it was thought to be too holy. They substituted Adoni (Lord) which was KURIOS in Greek.

 

·         Strictly speaking, YHWH DOES call himself “I AM” in the OT—even in the “I AM THAT I AM” passage Exo3.14: “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” But Christians in general don’t depend on that ONE versus to argue for the Unity of the Son and the Father. There are many passages in which the characteristics and roles of YAHWEH in the OT are assumed (mostly ‘shared’) by Jesus in the NT.

·         Jesus is God but God is not Jesus. God is “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”—separate discussion.

 

·         And the statement is NOT “WILL BE” but “AM”. The Hebrew is a Qal Imperfect, which would be present, but continuing action:

 

o   “I AM that I AM,” replies God. The verbs are first person common qal imperfects of the verb היה “to be,” connoting continuing, unfinished action: “I am being that I am being,” or “I am the Is-ing One,” that is, “the One Who Always Is.” Not conceptual being, being in the abstract, but active being, is the intent of this reply. It is a reply that suggests that it is inappropriate to refer to God as “was” or as “will be,” for the reality of this active existence can be suggested only by the present: “is” or “is-ing,” “Always Is,” or “Am.”” [John I. Durham, Exodus (vol. 3; Word Biblical Commentary; Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), 39. ]

 

 

·         Not sure what the denial of ‘unchanging’ is about – God’s character is stated as being ‘loyal’ and ‘predictable’. A change of divine action can be precipitated by a change in OUR action—in a predictable and dependable fashion. His responses vary, but they are always the same to the same stimulus (except when grace and mercy wonderfully intrude!).

 

 

I’ve spent I’d say about 100 hours on this over the last few months, and am 100% sure of my findings and went into it completely neutral and with only truth that I was seeking. I hope to share all of the Jesus to Yahweh comparisons with you next time I see you, and how if one stops trying to make this cruel entity make sense, and you listen to Jesus words though a neutral lens, it’s staggeringly clear and no other conclusion can be made. I believe THIS is the great deception to the earth in many ways.  I have pages and pages of verse to verse comparisons of who Yahweh says he is, and who Jesus says the Father is, and they do not match, in fact, they are opposite.

 

 

I have already given many of Jesus’ sayings that would seem to disagree with the conclusion, so I would suggest further meditation of those verses to see if there is some way ‘around them’—they seem pretty strong endorsements of YHWH by Jesus to me. Much stronger than lists of self-descriptions, although I haven’t seen that list.

 

(I have seen tons of OTHER lists that try to make Jesus ‘more acceptable’ than the Father/YHWH/GOD, but none of them address the central passage of Jesus about the OT God – “Love the Lord your God with All your heart”.

 

Now, just to be fair—it is easy to portray even Jesus as ‘evil’ if somebody wants to do that (and many skeptics actually ASSERT THAT – that Jesus is ‘evil’, angry, and wrathful just like His OT ‘evil’ father YHWH!).

 

Here’s just a couple of verses from His words/actions that could be CONSTRUED negatively, if somebody WANTED TO:

 

From His words, or the words of others who KNEW WHO He was:

 

·         Matthew 4:10	Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “ ‘You shall worship the Lord your God,  and him only shall you serve.’ ”
·         John 6	You are of your father the devil
·         Matthew 16:23	But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me.
·         Matthew 8:29	And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”
·         Mark 1:24	“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”
·         Mark 5:7	And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.”
·         Luke 4:34	What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”
·         Luke 8:28	When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and said with a loud voice, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.”
·         Matthew 21:43	Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
·         Luke 8:10	He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’
·         Luke 13:28	In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
·         Luke 12:9	But the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
·         John 3:36	Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
·         Mark 9:47	And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into shell,
·         Luke 9:60	And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

 

 

·         “Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the Day of Judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the Day of Judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.” [Mt 11:20–24.]

 

·         “But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come son a day when he does not expect him and sat an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating”  [Mt 15:25–26]

 

·         “I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! 50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!  Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.” [ Lk 12:49–51]

 

·         “Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and recline at table’?  Will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’ ” [Lk 17:7–10.]

 

·         “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. … “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. …  And these will go away into eternal punishment....” [Mt 25:31–46.]

 

 

There are very good explanations for these, but I use these to show that care must be taken in interpreting bible depictions of somebody—so slander will be avoided. We are supposed to ‘think the best’ of others and this must include God as well!

 

I would also suggest that—if some teachers were involved that suggested this anti-YAHWEH position—that they confront THEM with the data above to see how THEY respond to the facts of scripture. That might surface some credibility or integrity issues that they would need to bring before the Lord before they ‘listened’ to those teachers much more. Been in that situation MYSELF before… sigh

 

I would encourage your young friend to continue to study the Word prayerfully and humbly, and seek to understand how the pieces fit together in portraying the fullness and depth of our Lord. His diligence is to be commended!